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Joshua: This episode of The Seminarian is sponsored by Asbury Theological Seminary.

Hey everyone. And welcome to The Seminarian where we talk about seminary life, theology, and Christian formation. And in today's episode, Joe and I are, uh, graced by the presence of Dr. Craig Keener, who is one of the world's foremost, uh, scholars on the New Testament. And, uh, just as a quick introduction to him. He is. A professor at our school at Asbury Theological Seminary. Um, and we are so happy to have him on the show. He's authored more than 25 books, uh, including the very popular IVP, um, background, Bible background of the New Testament.

Uh, he's written a four-volume commentary on the book of Acts. I think, uh, Dr. Craig, you've also written a two-volume book on miracles, just on, uh, the validity of eyewitness accounts of miracles and kind of the continuation of miracles, uh, in today. And, uh, so we're just, uh, really humbled and pleasured to have you on our, our podcast.

Craig: It's, it's my privilege to be with you guys.

Joshua: In today's episode, we're talking about theology and, uh, two, in a way, similar sounding theologies that you may have heard, um, but they're actually pretty distinct, and that is cessationism and supersessionism. Um, again, they're not really related, except that they sound pretty similar.

Similar.

Joseph: Say those two back to back. Yeah, cessationism,

Joshua: supersessionism, and maybe sensationalism, which has nothing to do with theology. That's more like journalism and making a big deal. We can get sensational if you want. But um, i'll just start with the definition and then uh, Craig you can Uh, maybe correct me or critique or add anything that you want.

So as I understand it, cessationism is the belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, or some of them, uh, oftentimes called the signed gifts, uh, are no longer normative. For believers of today, so it's that they've ceased, particularly at the closing of Canon, and I understand there's some there's some nuance there in terms of a range of which gifts and how all that works.

But it's again, generally or popularly believed that things like speaking in tongues, healing, prophecy, words of knowledge. That those served a purpose kind of at that transitional time of the Old Covenant to the New Covenant and and really validating the message. There are miracles for that day in time, but that for today, those gifts that are kind of listed and and passages like 1st Corinthians 12, those have ceased.

And so that's my idea of cessation ism. Is that about right? Or how would you alter that?

Craig: Yeah, that that's, uh, that's pretty good. No, it again, as you say, it varies. I mean, you have hard cessationists who wouldn't even say that miracles happen today. I mean, most cessationists wouldn't say that. They'll say God is sovereign, "God can do miracles if he wants to do miracles. We're not going to complain." Um, but sometimes during periods when hard cessationism prevailed. in history. It's interesting that God did miracles anyway, and they were like, "no, we can't call it a miracle because that sounds like what Catholics say. We'll call it a special providence,". You know, but it's somebody who was disabled for years, suddenly, uh, during scripture reading of, uh, disabled person getting up and walking, suddenly the person hearing it gets up and walks. And, you know, so yeah, God still does things, but most cessationists today wouldn't say that God doesn't do miracles. And certainly they don't say there are no spiritual gifts, but they would say that certain spiritual gifts aren't for today.

And sometimes they speak of sign gifts. Um, I think often they speak of revelatory gifts. So things like prophecy, and I don't know why they put tongues in the same category as revelatory, since it's normally in the New Testament a form of prayer. But anyway, um, yeah, so, and continuationism is, uh, saying that all the biblical gifts continue, no reason to say that they stopped, no biblical reason to say they stopped.

And then what you said, sensationalism, that's the other extreme from cessationism that says they happen all the time. And look, we can make a big scene about it.

Joshua: Okay.

Craig: Interesting.

Joshua: Okay. So, um, we actually went to a Bible college, um, that was more dispensational and sensationalist. And, uh, I found that at the time I was Persuaded of those arguments, but a lot of it was actually based on Abuses it seemed like in the modern church rather than kind of the biblical texts themselves.

I know that one passage You know in 1 Corinthians 12 when the perfect comes, uh, that these things will, will cease. And it's this, they kind of insert the canon of scripture of being the perfect there. And, uh, but the rest of it seemed very much basis on abuses of the spiritual gifts. Is that what you find normally?

Craig: Yeah. Uh, you know, that the, uh, argument from first Corinthians 13 about the gift ceasing, uh, almost Newton New Testament scholars, think that's a valid argument, including most of my cessationist friends. They don't think that's a valid argument. Um, they usually resort to other kinds of arguments. But the big argument on the popular level, yes, is, I don't want to speak for cessationists, but, um, but the big argument that I hear, and the one that would, would persuade me, if I weren't persuaded biblically and experientially otherwise, is the, is the abuses one.

Because, yeah, there's some people who do crazy things in the name of the Spirit, but, You know, you have that in the Bible. You have true prophets, you have false prophets, you have true apostles, you have false apostles. You know, the Bible talks about all that, uh, false signs and wonders as well as true. And then, um, it seems to me biblically that's, we have the same kind of situation today.

Not that I'm not saying that, you know, all the abuses are from false prophets. I mean, we are human and so on, but, um, but I don't think the situation substantially has changed from scripture. You do have In scripture, miracles and so on happening more and sometimes in places than in others, and you do see them in the New Testament, especially on the cutting edge of evangelism.

And I think that's where we see that the most dramatic signs most often today, although not exclusively. But yeah, God is, God is sovereign. God can do them anywhere and, uh, in terms of the other gifts, we, we can get into it, but, you know, just, um, just talking about definition and then me, I'm, I'm wandering off on all these other topics, so.

Joshua: No, that's, that's exactly relevant. I think that it's, um, okay, so the passage in, for that verse in 1 Corinthians 13, that's saying when the perfect comes, you, I'm guessing would attribute that to, uh, the appearing of Christ, the Parousia. Yeah.

Craig: I mean, I mean, what else is there in the context? I mean, the context is pretty clear.

And even at the beginning of first Corinthians, you know, you're, you're, um, doing well in all these, all these gifts until, until the coming of the Lord. I think it's one seven, but in Of course, chapter 12, the gifts are for building up the body of Christ. Chapter 14, emphasize the gift that will build up the body of Christ more than another one.

And then chapter 13 is right in the middle of that. And the first three verses, if I have all the gifts, but don't have love, I'm nothing. Then he goes on and defines love or gives characteristics of love that are exactly the opposite of the way the Corinthians have been acting earlier in the letter, uh, versus four through eight.

But then. In the remaining verses, he's saying the gifts are temporary, love is eternal, but he also specifies what he means by the gifts being temporary. There's coming a time when we won't need the, the partial anymore. We, we know in part, we prophesy in part, that means our teaching means our prophesying.

Um, but some people, they want to, they say, no, no, the knowledge there doesn't, doesn't include the gift of teaching. Obviously, we still need the gift of teaching. But it's talking about the time that Jeremiah 31 also talks about, that there's a time coming when they'll no longer say, know the Lord, because every one of them, from the least of them to the greatest of them, will know the Lord.

The immediate context is when we see Him face to face, when we know, even as we are known, we're not going to need teaching. We're not going to need prophecy. It'll be complete then. And, you know, You know, I've been a Bible scholar for a long time, but I can tell you, I mean, there were times in my life when I was reading through the New Testament every week, but I do not know as I am known, and there are plenty of things I still need to know.

And I am longing to see Jesus face to face. And clearly that's what he's talking about there.

Joshua: Yeah. Because what you're saying is all of the gifts comprehensively are partial, right? We don't need them. Right. I think about healing as awesome as healing ministries and things are, that's still partial because we're going to die someday, you know, and we're waiting a resurrection where we'll never face those things again.

Craig: Exactly.

Joseph: Acts is like a signpost to point us to that. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Craig: And Jesus, Jesus teaches that in, um, when John the Baptist sends messengers to him saying, are you the one to come or should we look for somebody else? Yeah. And he sends the messengers back in Matthew 11, 5 and Luke 7, 22, I believe it is, and says, maybe it's 21, I think it's 22, uh, sends the messengers back and says, Tell John what you've heard and seen.

So he appeals to eyewitness evidence, which is, you know, we have plenty of that today. Tell John what you've heard and seen, the blind see, the disabled walk, the deaf hear. You know, and so on, some of the things that previous chapters have mentioned, the dead being raised was just mentioned in Luke. And so, um, but the, the language that he uses when he quotes, when he says that, uh, he's quoting from two texts in Isaiah, Isaiah 35 verses 5 and 6, and Isaiah 61, the first verse or two.

Um, and what he's saying, therefore, is, you know, the kingdom that you're proclaiming, the kingdom that's coming, you know, you said, I'm going to baptize in the spirit and fire. Um, the fullness of that kingdom, is coming. We have a foretaste of that right now. So there's signs of the kingdom. There are foretastes of the future kingdom.

Everybody who believes that Jesus is the Messiah, everybody who believes that Jesus has come and is yet to come, naturally believes the King has come and is coming, therefore believes that the kingdom has invaded history, is yet to come fully, um, like the that becomes the great, you know, mustard plant and And, uh, the leaven, uh, in the loaf, and so on.

And, and Jesus also does this with exorcism, like in Matthew 12, 28, and Luke 11, 20. If I, if I, by the Spirit of God, or by the finger of God, cast out demons, then God's kingdom has come upon you. So again, these are signs of the kingdom, they're foretaste of the kingdom. The devil's still running around, uh, people are still sick, people are still dying.

But when God does a miracle for anybody. Which, which he often does. I mean, we could give examples, but again, most people don't deny that God sometimes does these things. Um, but when God does it for anybody, it's a reminder of his promise. His kingdom is at work in the world, and there's coming a day when there'll be no more sickness, no more pain, no more death.

He'll wipe away every tear from our eyes. And so these are four tastes of the kingdom. Now, one text that. To which people often refer for cessationism, uh, more often, at least in academic circles than 1 Corinthians 13, is Ephesians 2 about, um, the church being built on the foundation of apostles and prophets.

And so they say, well, we just needed those for the foundation. We don't, we don't need them anymore. You also have Paul using the language of foundation, like in Romans 15,: 20, he says, uh, "I didn't want to go where a foundation has already been laid." Paul, Paul's ministry as an apostle was to lay foundations in different areas.

Foundations needed to be laid, uh, until the good news has been preached among all the nations. There's still areas. You guys know this. There's still areas where groundbreaking work for the kingdom still needs to be done. Um, but in terms of, in terms of the foundation of the scriptures, yeah, that's done. I, I agree with him on that.

And I think when you said, um, the gifts are all normative, the cessationists say that that's not true anymore. The one thing I would disagree with on that is anymore, because it was never normative for anybody to have all the gifts Right. And Augustine points this out. He said, you know, people sometimes cite him as saying the gifts had ceased.

He says later, he retracts that. He says, you know, I never thought that all of them had ceased. I mean, I knew that healings occurred, but now I know, you know, it's more, more often than I used to think. Uh, I think this is city of God, 22, eight. Well, he also has retractions, but city of God, 22, eight, they've, they've collected like 70 affidavits over the past two years.

for people who were healed from blindness, people raised from the dead, and other things. And in his sphere, where he was a church leader, and I think it's the retractions, where he says, you know, I used to think that, well, back in apostolic times, you had people who would be Uh, you know, every time everybody who got baptized, they come up out of the water speaking in tongues and everybody who got prayed for would get healed and well, I don't see that happening today, but you know, these things still do happen, you know, just not on that level.

I'm not sure it happened always, even in the first century. I mean, you have Trophimus I left at Miletus Sic. 2nd Timothy 4, you have, uh, Epaphroditus was sick close to the point of death. He got better, praise God. Uh, Philippians 2. Uh, Paul, because of a bodily, it could be translated illness, could be translated weakness, but either way, it was bodily, that's explicit in Galatians 4: 13. You know, something was wrong with him physically. Um, so we do, and, uh, there's something in Matthew 25, that one would take too long to, to go into, but even Luke 14, where Jesus says, Um, when you, when you throw a banquet, invite the poor, invite the disabled and so on. He's not saying everybody in this age will always get healed, even though, you know, he did heal everybody who came to him.

And so that, that was the norm, I guess we can say with Jesus. And it looks like certainly with the, the apostles, it was, it was very common as well. Um, even, well, especially during these big periods. of special outpourings like in Acts 19, people would take cloths from Paul's body, uh, or the shadow, Peter's shadow in Acts 5.

15, you know, you've got these massive things taking place. Um, but in Acts, Acts 14, uh, Paul perceiving that the person had faith to be healed said, rise up and walk. It's not like everybody there, you know, who's just going around, you know, and so people who say, well, you know, if you believe it's for today, then you should be emptying hospitals.

I don't see that in the New Testament either. So anyway, I'm, I'm, I'm digressing.

Joshua: No, no, no, that's perfect. So what you're saying, what I hear you saying, I could be wrong. Is that on one side to say that it's no longer even available. It's not an option uh is Not tenuous in the bible that it doesn't say that but on the other extreme it is unusual So maybe there are are some that would say like, "Oh, God wants to heal every single time." And you're saying well There is there's biblical evidence that that's not always the case paul himself epaphroditus all of these other instances where You We don't know why, you know, we're going to pray for healing.

It's better. probably than just not praying for healing because we don't exist, but we, we can't command it. Like maybe we, or maybe we can, I'm not sure that those kinds of things are nebulous to me of, is there, is there an aspect of having great faith and taking authority? Those are some terms I've heard in very charismatic circles as well.

Craig: It depends on what this, I mean, when you're When the spirit leads you, although sometimes God, God answers prayer, even when you don't feel like he's going to do anything sometimes, but, uh, you know, you got James five praying the prayer of faith, but, um, but I think the commanding the mountain to be removed, that is true.

But that's also presupposing that the Lord is in it. The Lord is, is moving you because it's like lamentation says, who is the one who speaks and it comes to pass unless the Lord has commanded it. You know, it's, it's more like a prophetic thing, not like somebody saying what they want and calling it prophetic.

But I mean, where the Lord is, is, is directing us, because it's following Jesus example. I mean, that comes up right after Jesus curses the fig tree. And they say, wow, look what happened when you said this. And he said, look, you could say to a mountain be removed. But the, the, the context is following Jesus example.

And so Jesus, Jesus went just going around saying whatever he was he was following what the father led him to do he was following the father's mission and Even though the next verse verse 11:24 in Mark says, you know, whatever you ask Well, whatever you ask appears a couple other times in Mark's gospel so Jesus says In, in, uh, in Mark 10, the chapter right before, to James and John who say, give us whatever we want.

And Jesus says, well, what is it that you want? And they say on the right and on the left, we want to be enthroned with you. And they don't get it. Um, because they're not asking for the kind of thing that God would approve of. I mean, what they're asking for comes at somebody else's expense. And. Uh, also, uh, in a way that they didn't mean, but because if we suffer with him, we'll be glorified with him.

I mean, the, the language of right and left appears one more time in Mark's gospel in Mark chapter 15 for the, the two robbers on his right and his left. Oh, when he's crowned king of the Jews, those are the ones in his right and left. But, uh, Um, but then later in that same chapter, Jesus says to Bartimaeus, what do you want, uh, what you want me to do for you?

And he says, Lord, that I may receive my sight and Jesus grants it. It's not at somebody else's expense, but Jesus himself in Gethsemane, he says, father, please take this cup for me. Nevertheless, not what I want, but what you want. Well, for James and John, it was for their good, as well as other people's good.

The answer was no. In Gethsemane, it was for our good, the world's good, because that was the only way of salvation for us. Wow. That God said no. And so, uh, but we do know he always hears us. And you know, sometimes I've prayed things and God didn't answer them the way I wanted.

Thank you, God.

Joseph: Yeah.

Craig: way better than I did what I needed. A few times that happened when I was praying for a wife. Uh, anyway, . Oh, thank you Lord. It wasn't, anyway, I'll, I'll leave that. .

Joshua: We want names. No, just, no.

Craig: Okay. No, I'm not saying it was their fault. Just Oh, right.

Joshua: No, that's an amazing point is Jesus does say that I don't say anything that the Father doesn't give me to say I don't do anything I don't see him modeling. So there is an orchestration. That's yeah, that's a great point. What do you think about and then maybe we'll, we'll conclude our topic on cessationism and move on to super sessionism about,

Craig: I better give you some of the positive arguments for continuation.

Yes. Oh, yes, please.

But actually, let me, let me give a counter response again to the one about the revelatory stuff.

Yes, the science, the science thing you've got in, in, in acts. Um, and even at the end of Acts, it doesn't use the word sign, but it's the same kind of stuff you see earlier called signs, but for revelatory, um, some people say, well, the Bible, the Bible is all we need for doctrine. You know what? I agree with him.

Uh, I don't, I don't, I don't get doctrine from prophecy, but you know, I think you're more likely to get. doctrine from teaching, and you're more likely to get new doctrine from teaching than you are from prophecy. I mean, most prophecy is like, um, you know, uh, the thing you've been praying about, about this move, God wants you to do it or something like that.

It's not, it's not doctrinal. Um, or, or if it is doctrinal, it's like often straight, the language of scripture, you know, that, that, you know, what you should know already. Uh, we could go

Joshua: So into that's a bit of a moniker to say that new doctrine comes from prophecy. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig: Yeah But here's the thing the bible nowhere teaches that the gift of prophecy will cease in fact it appears Fairly often throughout the bible.

It's the most common ministry of god's message in the Bible. Um, and certainly it doesn't contradict Scripture being written because Scripture was being written during that time. It's not like the Bible contains all that God has ever said. It's canon. It's the measuring stick that we can use to evaluate what God says.

But, I mean, Obadiah in 1 Kings 18, he hid a hundred prophets by fifties in the cave. Their prophecies aren't recorded. Those martyred under Jezebel, their prophecies aren't recorded. Paul speaks of, you know, You can have two or three prophesy per, per church service, you know, okay, take, take two or three per week per house church in the Roman Empire over the decades of the first century.

Joseph: Yeah,

Craig: you've got something like 700, 000 prophecies while the New Testament is being written. And in the church fathers, this stuff is still going on. And, um, and so anyway, I mean, my wife, there were three different people who didn't know each other. in, in Congo, where they don't have very many white people who prophesied to her at different times in her life that she was going to marry a white man with a big ministry.

And I tell you, I did not have a big ministry back then. And, and, um, yeah, some other people have prophesied very accurate things to me. Now, there have also been people who prophesied things that, you know, just, you know, Throw them out. Yeah. Uh, but, but I mean, these were so specific. These weren't like accidents.

These are anyway. Um, but here's the thing. The doctrine that prophecy would cease is nowhere taught in scripture. The doctrine that prophecy would cease is a post biblical doctrine. It therefore is the very thing it claims to be afraid of.

Joshua: Right?

Craig: Yeah. Anyway.

Joshua: Yeah. Cause I, from my understanding, it really came out of. John Calvin during the, the period of the reformation as far as like a, a systematized theology. It was kind of,

Craig: yeah, and Calvin wasn't as insistent on it. I mean, in some ways, I mean, I think he allowed for God to do miracles when God wanted to and so on. Um, really, it became a firmer conviction in some circles building on Calvin.

So, I mean, you had the Scottish reformers. They continue to have prophecies among them, you know, so they were, they were, they were in Calvin's line, reformed line, but then you had others who became hard cessationists, but it really, it really became a lot more pervasive, I think, in the enlightenment and, uh, well, the radical enlightenment, David Hume in his argument against miracles got away with that partly because you had this Christian group criticizing this Christian group saying, uh, we don't believe in your miracles.

Yeah. No matter what the evidence is, we don't believe in them because they don't fit our doctrine and God only does this to verify doctrine. I actually don't agree with that. I think God does it to honor the name of his son, Jesus. It's just like revivals, you know, we, we have the wonderful experience here at Asbury last year, but, you know, it's who says that only happens among Wesleyans.

Right. Or among certain groups. I mean, you have the 1965. West Timor revival in Indonesia. It was among reformed Christians. Hebrides revival was among reformed Christians. Um, you had, uh, various Lutheran revivals. You had, um, yeah, just, just so many, obviously the Pentecostal revival, um, the, especially Azusa street in 1906.

And, you know, it's not limited in the ways that we might limit it because God loves all his children. Uh, I have friends who are cessationists. Theologically, but they tell me about miracles that happen in the churches. Yeah, they just prayed according to James five and God did the miracle. You know, they're not saying like it has to always happen, but which, which I wouldn't say either.

But sometimes it's definition, you know, in terms of tongues, um, I had never heard of speaking in tongues. Because I was converted straight out of atheism, but two days after my conversion, when I was worshiping God, you know, it was just like, well, how can I give God enough glory unless he gives me the words to do it?

And God knows lots of languages. It started coming out in another language. I've been doing it ever since.

Joseph: Wow.

Craig: I wasn't like taught about speaking in tongues. I hadn't even gotten to that part of scripture yet. I don't have a Christian two days, you know, so people will say, yeah, anyway, I know they say, well, experience doesn't count, but but usually their arguments against this.

Our arguments from experience because of abuses. So, you know, but if we go back to the Bible, there's no reason to doubt that it continues. And in fact, if you want to, if you want to take what the, you know, the epistles actually, uh, there's direct commands in, in first Corinthians about seek the gift of prophecy.

Don't forbid speaking in tongues. You know, you have people building on this post biblical doctrine that these things ceased and ignoring explicitly what scripture says,

Joseph: right?

Joshua: That's an interesting point about Tom. We should move on to the next one. But I know one of the, uh, one of the arguments against or for cessationism, um, is that, you know, Let's say acts chapter two, which of course you're an expert on that.

It's literal languages where each word means something in a recognizable human language versus this idea of, you know, they would say it's a rhetorical. If even if I spoke the language or the tongue of angels or having a prayer language, these kinds of things and making a distinction. And so that's part of the support.

for cessationism. How, how would you parse that out?

Craig: In Acts 2, you had people there who recognized the languages because you had people from every, you know, all these different places, but that's not the case in Acts 10 or Acts 19, which doesn't mean they're not languages, but it does mean, you know, Usually you don't have people there who recognize all the other languages.

I mean, I, I know a linguist who has been places where he did recognize people speaking in tongues, speaking in languages. I had a student, um, a Jewish believer in Jesus who was, um, raised in a, in a godly Jewish, messianic Jewish home because her mother was an Orthodox Jew, went with a Christian friend to a Christian church service.

The pastor was praying in tongues. It was perfect Hebrew. He'd never studied Hebrew and the mother became a follower of Jesus because of that. So, I mean, you know, you have people say that never happens. Well, it does. But, um, but in terms of it being languages, the idea of a language is it's a communication.

And so, how it communicates is none of our business, you know. When Paul speaks of praying with his spirit, you know, what our concern is, is just that we're praying to God. It's not, you know, not worrying about what language it is. You did have that at Azusa Street and even earlier with Charles Parham in Topeka, Kansas.

You had, you had people, um, saying, Oh, that sounds like Chinese. And so they go off as a missionary to China, and then they have to learn the language when they get there because it's not Chinese. So, I mean, but usually even in Acts, I mean, even in Acts two, it says we, we hear them speaking the mighty works of God, you know, consistent with the other passages in Acts and with first Corinthians.

I think it was probably prayer and worship in those cases. It's not like they're being preached to in these other languages. Peter gets up and preaches. Some people say Aramaic. I think he was probably preaching in Greek, but uh, I think a lot of people from lower Galilee were bilingual, but that's another, another issue.

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So that was awesome. I want to keep continuing on that, but super session continuation.

Joseph: Yeah, yeah, hey

Joshua: Uh super sessionism, I'll just give a brief definition of this for our audience Um, oftentimes kind of by opponents or is maybe referred to as "Replacement Theology" Um, I think by proponents of it is maybe more nuanced to be like "Fulfilled Theology" Um, but these these things are related and it's this idea that the church You Again, a hard supersessionist would just say has replaced or displaced even Israel and that the church is now spiritual Israel.

There is one people of God. It is the church. A dispensationalist kind of view might keep those two is very distinct that there is a merging of those people of God into one, but that the * Israel has its own Uh, identity before God that continues past, um, the crucifixion and resurrection. And that affects, of course, ecclesiology, that of course affects eschatology, uh, but supersessionism, again, this idea that the church has been grafted in and now God's primary dealing is with the church and not with, in any kind of reference to Israel as a spiritual Israel, that is the church.

Was any critiques on that definition?

Craig: Well, the way you define them, I actually agree with some things in each of them, even though I'm not a super sessionist, but, um, yeah, I mean, they're dispensationalism and covenant theology both draw on some biblical ideas. The question is how you put them, how you put the biblical ideas together and There are degrees of, I mean, progressive dispensationalism has moved beyond, you know, the old traditional dispensationalism, which probably is what you got when you were, I don't know, but a

Joshua: classic seven dispensations.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and not all covenant theologians I think would, would be super sessionist. Uh, but in any case, uh, looking at, looking at scripture, I mean, in the, in the old Testament, Obviously, God chooses Israel. He, he talks about that over and over. Deuteronomy 7, I didn't choose you because you were the greatest or mightiest people.

I chose you because I loved you. I made a promise to your ancestors. Um, later, I think it's chapter 11 or no, maybe the end of nine. Anyway, um, I didn't choose you because of your righteousness to Israel. That's kind of obvious in certain passages, but, um, but not everybody within Israel kept the covenant.

So you have this core within Israel, um, we can call the remnant, and then sometimes you had some gentiles who became part of that. Uh, and, and, um, well, you know, the, some of the women listed in Matthew chapter one, you know, Ruth and Rahab, um, and maybe, maybe tomorrow. That's not clear that she became part of the remnant, but, um, but anyway, yeah.

Joshua: Proselyte kind of inclusion.

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What, yeah, what became Cross the lights? Um. And certainly in the first century, that was a big, you know, lots of people talked about Josephus says, Hey, we're not like other nations where, you know, you'd be a resident alien for generations. No, you can you can join our people.

We were nice to people to join. Probably not. Everybody was nice. But yeah. Yeah. Um, so what you have in the New Testament, you still have that remnant within Israel. But the, the number of Gentiles coming in is massive. That was already prophesied in the Prophets. I mean, Zechariah 2, Isaiah, 56, Isaiah 11, well even Isaiah 2 with the nation streaming to Zion.

I mean you have the, The idea of Gentiles coming to Israel's God and, you know, Zechariah even talks like nations being converted. Isaiah 19, Egypt and Syria will become part of my people, you know, using the same language he uses for Israel. So that's why Paul can say this mystery about the Gentiles was, uh, is revealed from the scriptures.

It was already there, but, uh, people didn't see it or how it would fit together, which is always the problem. Right. And then the New Testament, I mean, you use the language of grafted in, and associate that with supersessionism. But Romans 11, that's exactly the wording that Paul uses for Gentiles being grafted in.

But what are Gentile believers grafted into? Um, they're grafted into the heritage of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the prophets. You know, they can't, don't look down in the natural branches. They can be grafted back in. And Romans 11 goes on to say, they will be. That there's coming a time when the Jewish people will turn and some people say, no, that's spiritual Israel and they go back to Romans chapter nine to make that argument.

But in the immediate context in Romans 11, all the verses around there, Israel is the Jewish people. So, you know, looking at the immediate context. And it's not just verse 26 where it says all Israel will be saved after Gentiles has come in, but it's also earlier when he says, um, if their, if their fall brought riches to the Gentiles, how much more will the restoration be?

So you've got this throughout the prophets. You've got it, you know, not as often in the New Testament because the big issue was what do you do with the Gentiles? But, but you do have it in the New Testament as well. Um, Matthew seems to presuppose it. He has, uh, when they say, blessed be the one who comes in the name of the Lord, they won't see me again until they say that.

Well, in Luke, that's, I think Luke 13, it's before the triumphal entry, but in Matthew, it's after the triumphal entry. He's looking for something yet to come and You also, well, Revelation is, is debated. So Revelation 11, I think might tend to have it, but we'll just leave that alone because that one is a harder passage.

And then we'll also leave alone the millennium, Revelation 20, because that one's super debated passage, but whatever you believe about the millennium, you've got Romans 11, and also the idea of things unfolding in phases. So we talked about continuationism, um, not cessationism, the same way with supersessionism.

It's like, okay, well, everything's fulfilled. Everything's not fulfilled until Jesus comes back. You know, there's plenty still to be fulfilled. So, um, yeah, Jesus quotes Isaiah 35 with people being healed. He quotes Isaiah 61 with good news being preached to the poor. But does that mean there's going to be no more healing at the second coming?

Or, you know, that's when our full, you know, we get our resurrection bodies and so on. So unless you're a hyper preterist, not the preterist to talk about fulfillment in 70 or something, you know, um, but the, the hyper preterists, the ones that normal preterists think are heretics, a hyper preterist to say the resurrection of the dead is passed already.

Unless, unless you're willing to say that you can't

Joshua: I didn't even know that was a thing, but yeah. Right.

Craig: I didn't, I didn't think it was a thing until I met one. I was shocked, yeah. Um, yeah, anyway.

Paul talks about it in 2 Timothy, but just to say that in, in terms of, things are unfolded in phases. So, Isaiah prophesies the restoration. People come back from Babylon. And, well, the desert's not blossomed, blossoming with, with flowers, the Dead Sea, the fish in the Dead Sea don't come to life or anything.

Joshua: The mountains aren't rolling with wine, you know.

Craig: Yeah, exactly, Amos 9, yeah, exactly, all these, all these things. Um, some things remain to be fulfilled. When Jesus was healing the sick, uh, or, or, even, you know, Mark, Mark 1 :15, um, good news of the kingdom, the kingdom is at hand. Well, yeah, in Jesus, but again, it's like the mustard seed.

It's not yet the, the tree. It's a phase forward. It's a step forward in the restoration, but there's still more to come. So, sometimes when we look at fulfillment, we think, okay, this is everything. We, we have everything we need until the second coming. That doesn't mean that, There's not more that's gonna happen.

Um, and

Joshua: it's embryonic. It's, it's, mm-Hmm, .

Craig: It's, it's a signpost. Emb, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a signpost. And, uh, but you do have, I mean, I mean, we sing Father Abraham, right? Uh, father Abraham has, okay, let me not sing, nobody will watch , but we sing that because we are grafted in, right? We are, we are children of Abraham.

And, and so. Uh, and Revelation does this too, for the, it'll take passages about Israel and apply them to specifically God's people from every kindred and tribe and people and nation. So you have that with kingdom and priests from Exodus 19. You have it in Revelation 7, 9 through 17, where Isaiah 49, 10 is used, uh, and also passage from Isaiah 25, uh, with God wiping away every tear from our eyes.

And, um, God leading us to fountains of living water, no more hunger, no more thirst. Uh, Revelation makes two changes with that one. One is, One is that it's now applied to people from every kindred and tribe and people and nation. The other is it's God and the lamb. So a fuller exposition of who God is, as well as, so we've been grafted in, but all speaks of hate.

If, if we could be grafted in, look how much easier it would be for Jewish people themselves to be grafted back in. Natural.

Joseph: Right. Yeah.

Craig: And, and, and we've seen again, not talking about experience, so we're not, we're not there yet. But we can have faith. Based on what scripture says, but, you know, you look at the past century.

How could people from every kindred and tribe and people and nation be before God's throne? Well, in the past century, you've had the, what we call the global South, go from maybe 10 percent of the church to being like 60 or on its way towards 70 percent of the church. God, God can do amazing things. My wife's country, in Central Africa of Congo, um, went from 1 percent Christian to 80 percent Christian in a century.

Now, 80 percent is exaggerated in terms of actual born again, living for Jesus Christians, but in terms of, you know, but still it's, it's, it's dramatic, phenomenal. Um, and, but also the, the Messianic Jewish movement, Jewish believers in Jesus. There are more today. I mean, not all of them would call themselves Messianic Jews and would just say we're Christians of Jewish descent.

Um, there are more today than there have been at any time in history since maybe the second or third century. Um, you know, if we can't believe it in the scriptures, at least look at some of the trends and see, hey, maybe God is getting ready to do something. Yeah. Anyway,

Joshua: I yeah, and I think it should foster if nothing else some humility because that passage in Romans 11 is saying hey You know, don't be arrogant because God removed you as an unnatural branch

Craig: It's happened to different parts of the church at different times I mean, they're not completely removed not like they can't be restored But you know, yeah, it's happened when we get puffed up and think we're all all of it God raises up another movement And we have to learn from them.

Joseph: Yeah. Yes. With, um, so in terms of like narrative, right. So we're like following biblical narrative and obviously the Old Testament is like. It's all about Israel, focused heavily on Israel's narrative. And, um, the way I understand it is like the Old Testament has a pretty complete picture of that narrative in and of itself, in a sense.

Obviously in the New Testament, there's a lot of novelty there and it develops further. But I feel like sometimes what happens is, or what I run into, is the scholars or he'll be teaching and they'll um, they'll follow the narrative and they'll be like It's Israel's story Israel and we get to the New Testament.

It's Jesus and then it's like fulfillment fulfillment fulfillment and then by the time you get to acts it's like it's all fulfilled and now this is the birth of the church and then and it kind of like and then the church's message is essentially "Israel's story is fulfilled" at that point and then and then that that becomes the gospel, you know, and um, And I feel like for me, it feels like a, uh, sleight of hand sort of thing.

It's like make Israel kind of disappear, but then they, but they emphasize Israel's story so much.

Joshua: Up until,

Joseph: until yeah, Jesus fulfills it

Joshua: all. And then it's no longer Israel's not really relevant. They are a character, but it's not,

Joseph: yeah. In the background a bit or something. Yeah.

Craig: If I see something similar with Cessationism going on, uh, in Supersessionism in that you look at a radical rupture, radical change, the difference with Cessationism is you don't even have any biblical support for it.

The rupture comes after the Bible's completed. Uh, but I, I see more continuity than that and, and. Covenant theology actually sometimes emphasizes continuity more than traditional Dispensationalism did. But I think we need, I think we need to recognize continuity and see what develops out of what's already there and what it's pointing to.

So they're right to see this development, but I think they're wrong not to see that it's going to encompass all, all of, all of God's promises. Um, and. Also, in terms of, um, like the rupture in the New Testament, I mean, you have, you do have plenty of things talking about spiritual restoration. You do have plenty of things talking about the, the coming of a Messiah.

I even think there are things there talking, I know there's people that disagree with this, but I, I, I even see things talk, signify that God Himself would come to his people and that in some passages, That and the Messiah are the same hope that it's the same, same person, actually, and the Son of Man and, you know, a Suffering Servant in these things that are the suffering servant as a remnant within Israel is the servant, but, um, that these, these all come together in the same, in the same person in Jesus.

What we also need to see is the unfolding in phases that it doesn't all happen at once. And once we allow for that. then I think we can allow for, we can allow for a millennium. Now, whether, whether we think there's a millennium or not, it's going to depend on our exegesis of Revelation 20. But at least we can allow for multiple things to happen and not say, all of this already was fulfilled, nothing more to look at.

Joshua: What I hear you saying is, and we'll, we'll close here in just a second, but it's, it may be we're drawn to that, which is binary. And it's just like, This is done. This is started. I can understand that and it's a little harder to track development, continuation Threads that maybe we don't see a lot of emphasis in one period but they're still there But we it's just not as apparent at that time And it's a more Moderate but open view to saying no, we can't.

They're all there. And we are looking to a future where these things at least it is a possibility that it all takes place right? Well, Dr. Craig, thank you so much for your time. Um, it is a privilege to have you at Asbury and to be in. Um, yeah, just this time of. Learning a lot and I hope our audiences did. I trust that they did.

Um, god bless you and uh, really appreciate your ministry to the church.

Craig: Yeah I should say these are my views. So i'm not saying these are everybody at the seminary doubt if we have any cessationists at least we don't have any hard cessationists who would deny that miracles ever happen, but um, but Yeah, so I don't alienate my my dispensational or covenant friends. I love everybody You

Joshua: So I can't just say that I should get an "A" automatically because I agree with That won't get me an "A" necessarily

Joseph: Maybe in your class.

Joshua: Hey Well, thank you all the same just for your time and uh, it was a privilege having you

Craig: Thank you. Great to be with you. God bless

The Seminarian

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Cessationism & Supersessionism with Craig Keener

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